J'ACCUSE KRAMER
Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative
From: teg3@midway.uchicago.edu (Ted E. Gray)
Subject: Kramer - Exploiter of Bands?! Advice needed!
Date: Wed, 26 Jan. 1994 20:10:16 GMT
So here's the deal. I'm in a Chicago band called DragKing. We've released
2 singles on small labels and for the last 6 months we've been working on
recording a full length project that we're planning on releasing on CD/LP.
We've recorded all of our stuff on our bass players reel to reel 8-track in
his mom's basement. We think it sounds pretty great and we've been sending
out demos of what we've recorded to labels across the land so we can get it
released. We would think it would be a great deal for any labile seeing
that the thing is already recorded, all they would have to do is put up the
money. We've gotten a bit down on ourselves recently because of the lack
of response from the labels we've sent our tape to, but we also understand
that sending unsolicited tapes to labels isn't going to get you very far.
Only one "labile" has agreed to put it out and that labile is owned by some
friends of ours. We would end up having to pay almost everything ourselves
to get it out.
Anyway... we did get one other response. One of the labels we sent a demo
to was Shimmy Disk. When we've sent most of the tapes out we've assumed
that 95% of them end up in the hands of someone in the mail room and never
even make it to the people who run/make the decisions at the labels. Well
we got a postcard and letter from Kramer the other day. The postcard had a
beautiful picture of Kramer's new studio in his house in Jersey. And a
fine looking studio it seems to be. He also sent us a hand written letter
that said, "your music needs to be better recorded to attract
attention to it. I like low-fi 4 and 8 track stuff but your music deserves
more then that. Call me about coming out to my place and recording. I really love your music, and I would love to record with you. Peace Kramer."
We couldn't believe it. To us Kramer is a superstar far above and beyond
anything we hope to achieve. I am a big fan of his old stuff in
Shockabilly and Bong Water. Could the man who is responsible for King
Missile and Galaxy 500 be interested in us? In a way we thought our sound did have that Shimmy Disk approach. We're a "loose" noisy band. Ben, the guitar player in the band, phoned the number Monday morning and got Kramer's answering machine. The message scared him because Kramer's voice barked out, "you've reached xxx-xxxx, you've got 30 seconds to leave a message." Ben left a message for him to call him back at home because he wanted to talk to him.
Well Kramer phoned him back last night and they talked for a long time.
Kramer is "inviting" us to go out to his place on the weekend of Feb. 5th
and 6th. He "claims" that otherwise he's booked through July and his rates
are going up in June, so we should take advantage of his offer while we
can. His rates are $500 dollars a day for 10 hours of recording time. Ben
asked him about being signed to Shimmy Disk. Kramer said that he could
make no guarantees about being signed, but if he was really into it he
could see what he could do.
The question is if we should do it. We already have a bunch of stuff
recorded and we're having trouble getting that out. We think our 8-track
stuff is great. I for one listen to a lot of stuff that was recorded on
4-tracks. Sure it has a low-fi sound but I like it! Does it really make
that big a difference to that many people if it's recorded on 24-track? We
also know we can record with Steve Albini here in Chicago for $350 a day.
Is Kramer worth that much more then Albini? What are we going to do with
Kramer's recordings of us once they're done anyway, put out another single?
What are the possibilities of Kramer actually signing us anyway? I
somewhat know his situation. He just bought his big new house in Jersey.
He's got bills to pay. Is he just trying to take advantage of some poor
no-name rock group and make a quick buck? Could he actually have some
interest in us. In some ways we would think that lots of bands would be
into recording with him. Why has he singled us out?
Any advice that anybody has would be appreciated! Thanks!
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March8, 1994
(So that's what I wrote. I figured what the fuck, what have I got to lose? It's free. Ben thought it was a really good idea when I told him about it. In fact it was pretty much him who came up with the subject line.
I posted the message at the end of the day on Wednesday. All afternoon on the phone Lavon, Stel, Adam, Ben, and I talked. Ben got on the phone and called Grubbs. We thought his advice would be worth having. He didn't think it was a good idea. He said that Kramer was charging too much and if we wanted to record in a studio we could always jsut record at KingSize. We all sort of discounted his advice because we know that KingSize doesn't have the same equipment Kramer has (16 vs. 24 tracks). Also that's just the type of answer we thought we would get out of Grubbs!
We all were going to go to band practice that evening. It was the first time in a week and a half the Stel was going to make it. We were all abuzz with the thought of going to New York to record with Kramer. My car was in the shop so I was going to get a ride north with Ben and Lavon. Stel had a job up north so he was going to meet us up there and give me a ride home. I had time to walk home from work before Ben would pick me up at 6:30. I had to pack up my 4-track and grab some stuff. One of the things I wanted to find was the Option I had remembered had the article about Kramer. Julia and I had just rearranged and cleaned our bookshelf over the weekend so I quickly found the pile of Options that I had sorted out. I started looking through them and I found it right away. It was easy to find the issue because it had his picture on the front. I had remembered the story being about his new New Jersey studio but it was about his very successful studio "scene" in New York. It was released in Sept. '90. Fairly old.
Ben picked me up. We started talking. The more we talked the more excited we became. We all were realizing that we really wanted to do it. We had decided that putting out another single with just his stuff would be useless. If nothing else we would have to wait until we sold more of our second single. We wouldn't want it competing with it. We went to Wicker Park to pick up Adam. He was really into doing it also. We were talking about doing Jazz Monster, Raw Meal, and Ben's new song.
Ben started saying that we shouldn't even think about getting signed to Shimmy Disk. We should just go up there for the fun of it. A cool road trip, we could learn something if nothing else. We got up to mama Stel's. Stel wasn't there yet. We got downstairs and talked some more. Stel showed up pretty quickly after we got there. He was really into the idea of going out there. We spent the rest of our band practice talking about going out there. Sometimes I would play the devils advocate and talk the cynical side.
-- He's only trying to rip us off. He's just trying to take advantage of some innocent corn-fed country boys from Shee-cago. But we had pretty much decided "what the fuck. we'll have fun at the least."
We spent a long time deciding on what songs we should do. We knew that if we had a week and a half we could learn a couple of songs really well. We decided that we would redo Jazz Monster, do Ben's new song, and do an experimental jam thang. We decided that what we could do is take the songs that he produced and use it for our CD along with the other stuff that we had already recorded. That way we wouldn't worry about being signed to Shimmy Disk but our "product would by easier to market with Kramer having "produced" 2 or 3 songs.
We knew we could play Jazz Monster. Lavon, Adam, Ben, and I were really into doing Ben's new song. We told Stel that he wouldn't like it. We played it for him and we were right! But Stel, just like he always does, came up with a great new part for it that made it even better, and by the end of the evening he was into it. We spent most of the rest of the evening practicing the new song. I thought it was sounding really good. By the end of practice we were all feeling really good. We were all ready to go to Jersey. We even phoned Jonathan Solomon in Jersey about getting us a gig on Saturday night and he said he could get us a show opening up for Hum or The Griffters. We would have even gotten paid for the gig. We could have used the money to pay for the recordings. It was one of the best practices in a long time.
I rode home him Stel. We talked more about going out there. He told me that he really wasn't into the new song. What can he/we do. The rest of us are so into it. I got to sleep pretty late and then went to work. I checked out ran the reports and opened up Eudora. I had 8 messages!)
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan. 94 16:14:26
I have my $.02 cents of advice to pitch in.
We just finished an album (14 songs 62 minutes long) for ~$1000. It was done in a 16 track analog studio with a fairly good engineer. It took us 16 hours to record and 8 hours to mix down. It sounds good (my subjective opinion.)
I don't know how good your bass player's recording equipment is, but I think you should try a studio, it just offers so many advantages. Like:
Complete separation of simultaneously recorded tracks. The ability to quickly punch in parts which are un-acceptable. A large selection of effects (subtle or obvious) can me added to the
tracks or mix to add to your sound.
Quiet environment with quality equipment for making your mix sounds right
$50 bucks an hour is a pretty good deal for 24 tracks. (We paid $35 for 16) Remember, you will be faced with added costs. The 2 inch master runs around $70-100, and DAT tapes are about $15. CD masters also run $40-60. You can get 1000 CDs pressed for about $1700.
Sixteen track (or even eight) track studios are cheaper, as well as faster and easier to for the engineer to run. You may want to consider how many tracks you really need for your album, and shop around a bit. Studio owner/engineers are definitely in it for the money. They have to pay for all of the expensive equipment. They will milk any band, no matter how good, for whatever they can get. It is also a very competitive marketplace. Listen to the quality of the stuff the studios have done, if they are good, they will happily play it for you. Make sure that you can get the sound you want from that studio. In my opinion, a good engineer in a small studio is way better than a shitty engineer in a big one.
To get the best bang for your buck, make sure you are tighter than a bugs ass before you hit the studio. It sucks to punch in parts that should have been done right the first time (especially at a buck a minute).
The engineer will add his own touch to the mix. However, since you have done some "basement" tapes, you can make sure it sounds how you want it. Don't forget that it is your dollar, and your album, and you can have it any way you want it to sound.
As far as what to do with it once you record it, I have no idea, that is the same boat we're in. I would be happy to hear what you find out, a list of labels & addresses to send tapes to would help me greatly.
Good Luck to ya. I'll trade ya tapes when you're done.
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(Not bad for a first response. The pragmatic type. He obviously didn't know who Kramer was though.)
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan. 1994 22:02:24 -0500
It's difficult to say whether Kramer is actually out to "exploit" you and your band, but what I can say definitively is that getting "SIGNED" to Shimmy Disc isn't a real bargain... It's fairly common knowledge that Shimmy acts never see a dime from the label.
As for Kramer's motivation: sure he may have a new house, studio and/or whatever, but I know he's also dropped a small fortune on advertising recently... EVERY SHOPPING CART IN MY LOCAL GRAND UNION CARRIES AN AD FOR NOISE NEW YORK STUDIO -- no joke.
<
Also, Kramer works VERY fast in studio.
Other than that, that's all I know.
These are all stories I've heard from Franklin Bruno from
Nothing Painted Blue. K!z!K
Please E-mail me directly and I'll talk more at length and can even put
you in touch with the other people.
I think what pisses me off about this most is that the hopes of people who
send out demo tapes is so high that they are vulnerable to being taken
advantage of. It seems pretty clear to me that something of the sort is
going on here.
I can't get over it! Three people, same hook.
Anyone else who has received similar cards please add to the thread.
The main contributing factor to this hesitancy is the story he
heard from a friend who went to that annual music funfest in New York.
Apparently, Kramer was giving a talk on the very subject of keeping
a small label afloat and how sometimes that requires the manipulation
and exploitation of small bands.
However, that info comes from a guy who also sent a tape to Kramer
but didn't get a postcard.
Anyway, if I talk to any of these guys soon, I'll post any relevant
updates on the situation here.
Almost nobody on Shimmy has ever seen a penny from him. Friends of mine in a Shimmy band recently got a contract in the mail, which they were asked to sign, which was to take _retroactive_ effect to their last two albums. It meant that recoupables on their albums were so high that they never _would_ see a penny from them, and that everything that they recorded--under any circumstances--for several years would belong to Shimmy.
Kramer sometimes makes a deal such that he pays for recording in exchange for putting stuff out on Shimmy--but the recording has to be done by him at Noise NJ.
Good music is good music. Period. Jimi Hendrix made _Are You Experienced?_ on a fuckin' four-track. _Sgt. Pepper's_ is eight-track. Good music will out. Don't let anyone con you into thinking otherwise.
If you think your 8-track/4-track stuff sounds good, then I think you should
stick with it and save your money...you sent out tapes to labels in order
to release your stuff, not to get some studio time - I, too, respect Kramer's
abilities as a producer and a musician, but he does want to make money.
If you like your low-fi sound, then don't mess with it - check out
early Sebadoh, the 2nd and 3rd Ween albums, and early Daniel Johnston -
they wouldn't be the same with some fancy ultra-gloss production.
Save your $500...if you're gonna spend some money, you might as well put
out $1500 for a batch of CDs.
Good luck
Slender Fungus
(By this point I was feeling very good about our decision. The one thing that kept on nagging my while I was thinking about going out there was why we needed to record with him when we already had the whole thing recorded? Did we think that what we had worked on for the last 6 months wasn't good enough? I thought it was great. Stel thought it was great. Ben, Lavon, and Adam thought it was great. Why should we record it over again. There are a few tracks and songs we're thinking of recording over again, but we can do that at mama Stel's.
FUCK KRAMER AND ALL THE FACSIST PIG EXPLOITERS OF YOUNG AND UPCOMING BANDS WHO HAVE TO DEPEND AND TRUST ANYONE THEY CAN TO HELP THEM MOVE FORWARD.
But who is out there that isn't out to exploit us? The late great Zappa always warned me that nobody should ever go into the music business.
We'll see what happens. Actually I'm feeling really good about the whole thing. We learned something.)
Reprise: March 6, 1994
back to main DragKing page.
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(Wow... this blew my mind. All of my deep cynical fears were rearing their ugly heads.)
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Date: 26 Jan. 1994 22:22:36 -0800
Well, the one thing I know about Shimmy Disc is that bands rarely make
any "profit" from putting out records. It's kind of a deal where the bands
usually
pay very little and get very little. Meaning that SOMEONE at
Shimmy Disc scores big when an album does (It's kinda unconditional
that King Missile and Ween leave Shimmy Disc when they reach an apex..
but then again it might be the major label thing with both bands as
well)
--------------------------
(Fuck man, fuck...)
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan. 94 23:50:23 -0500
hi. I was reading your article and I don't actually know Kramer, but I have some friends who recorded for shimmy-boot, a shimmy disc side label and they know Kramer pretty well. The story is this, Kramer does rip bands off, none of them make any money, and unless he really likes them, they end up paying him for studio time. This works out for bands like king missile, who don't make a dime from shimmy disc, but do get successful later. (incidentally, John S. Hall apparently hates Kramer and may sue him.) Kramer's wife just left him too. He seems a little slimy. I really don't know how accurate my information is, or if you should listen to me at all. Recording for Kramer could be good for you. My advice is to be wary, and avoid getting into a position where you spend money with no guarantee of getting anything back. Incidentally, I would choose Steve Albini myself, tho some people I know think Kramer is a genius. Good luck, and I hope this helps. dealing with Kramer seems like a risky proposition to me, and just be really careful of what you do.
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Date: 27 Jan. 1994 01:48:01 -0500
I have heard 2 other identical stories about demo tapes sent to Shimmy
Disc. One was from someone I know in Indianapolis and one here in NYC.
He has a reputation for being an operator and an egomaniac. If you have
money to blow and want an opportunity to work with Kramer and you like the
way he engineers and mixes then it might be a good opportunity. But as
with the other 2 people I know, both received the classic postcard and the
same tease at the idea of a record on Shimmy.
------------------------------
(the conspiracy grows...)
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan. 1994 09:06:40 -0800
read your post on the net 'bout Kramer. While I worked at college radio, he was also one of my faves- consistently putting out good music, then starting up the kokopop label. Unfortunately, things have turned more into a "biz" for him. Kokopop has never paid bands anything-this has led to many a threatened lawsuit. I know for sure they have not paid Franklin Bruno anything, and he has since bailed on the contract. This is not a aberration, but a typical example. Kramer also screwed over the English band Edsel Auctioneer, leading them to believe he was going to put out another LP after the kokopop release (which was a license deal) and produce it. They flew all the way over here and were blown completely off. Don't waste a thousand dollars. By the way, I really liked your first seven-inch. If you want, you can send me a demo. I work at Blahblahblah records- address xxxx West xxxxx Ave., xxxx, ?? 00000. I would like to hear it. or you can email me back...
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(wow!!! the conspiracy deepens even more but contacts are made. The more I read the more I realize that the internet is my friend. I'm so glad that I decided to post my message.)
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan. 94 11:54:10 -0500
I am in a band called toenut. we recorded with kramer on the same type of deal last November. I would like to talk to you about it. you can call me at (xxx)xxx-xxxx if you would like.
------------------------------
(Ben called the guy. Same old story.)
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan. 94 19:28:55
All I can say is that Kramer, unless he's really into your band, tends to
misguide his promises. He "recorded" Surgery's record on Circuit, but he really
didn't do it. He let some girl that he wanted to fuck record the entire session
and then took full credit for it. He also took a "strong" interest in another
friend's band, invited them out and then attempted to score with the lead
singer. Based on those cases $500 would be a steep price to pay for getting
fucked.
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan. 1994 21:36:28 GMT
A friend of mine who lives here in Toronto got the exact same
treatment. Postcard then subsequent phonecall. Kramer told him
something to the effect of that if he was hesitant due to the
cost then something could be worked out. However, him and his
bandmates seem still to be a bit hesitant.
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan. 1994 02:11:57 -0500
Kramer is fast and a decent producer.
--
xxx666xxxxx
"Satan sucks, but you're the best."
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(By this point we had decided that we were going to blow Kramer off. Every message that came in was a reinforcement that the guy was a shyster. None of us could believe that not a single person had anything good to say about the guy. I think most people would agree that he was a decent producer and had very good equipment but what was going to be the end result. What would DragKing get out of recording with Kramer? We finally decided, not much.)
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Date: 28 Jan. 94 15:51:19 GMT
teg3@midway.uchicago.edu (Ted E. Gray) writes:
>can. His rates are $500 dollars a day for 10 hours of recording time. Ben
>asked him about being signed to Shimmy Disk. Kramer said that he could
>make no guarantees about being signed, but if he was really into it he
>could see what he could do.
>The question is if we should do it. We already have a bunch of stuff
>recorded and we're having trouble getting that out. We think our 8-track
>stuff is great. I for one listen to a lot of stuff that was recorded on
>4-tracks. Sure it has a low-fi sound but I like it!
-----------------------------
Yesterday I went to Ajax Records and among other things bought a copy of Soul Discharge, by the Boredoms. It's on Shimmy Disk and produced by Kramer. I got the CD because it had the extra 45 minutes of their old stuff on it. I stood there wondering if I should buy it. I did and it was great...